On ven, 2005-04-08 at 18:41 +0200, Matthieu Ricaud wrote:
> merci à nouveau Eric,
>
> à priori même si le processeurs RELAX NG créera un element vide, ça n'est
> pas un problème vu que je n'utiliserai pas de processeurs RELAX NG mais une
> simple transformation xsl...(me trompe-je ?) mais puisqu'il y a d'autres
> solutions comme tu me le montre et qu'il faut mieux voir à long terme (je
> serai peut être amener à en utiliser un par la suite) et puis tant qu'a
> utiliser des standards autant rester standard !
Tout à fait!
> tiens au passage, à titre d'info à tu une idée d'où vienne ces nom d'élément
> foo, bar etc que les developpeur xml utilise toujours dans les exemple ?
Les développeurs XML et les autres, c'est bien plus vieux que XML...
Voici ce que j'obtiens quand je cherche "foo" sur mon serveur de
dictionnaires :
"Jargon File (4.3.1, 29 Jun 2001)"
foo /foo/ 1. interj. Term of disgust. 2. very common Used very
generally as a sample name for absolutely anything, esp. programs and
files (esp. scratch files). 3. First on the standard list of
metasyntactic variables used in syntax examples. See also bar,
baz, qux, quux, corge, grault, garply, waldo, fred,
plugh, xyzzy, thud.
When `foo' is used in connection with `bar' it has generally traced to
the WWII-era Army slang acronym FUBAR (`Fucked Up Beyond All Repair'),
later modified to foobar. Early versions of the Jargon File
interpreted this change as a post-war bowdlerization, but it it now
seems more likely that FUBAR was itself a derivative of `foo' perhaps
influenced by German `furchtbar' (terrible) - `foobar' may actually have
been the _original_ form.
For, it seems, the word `foo' itself had an immediate prewar history
in comic strips and cartoons. The earliest documented uses were in the
"Smokey Stover" comic strip published from about 1930 to about 1952.
Bill Holman, the author of the strip, filled it with odd jokes and
personal contrivances, including other nonsense phrases such as "Notary
Sojac" and "1506 nix nix". The word "foo" frequently appeared on license
plates of cars, in nonsense sayings in the background of some frames
(such as "He who foos last foos best" or "Many smoke but foo men chew"),
and Holman had Smokey say "Where there's foo, there's fire".
According to the Warner Brothers Cartoon Companion
(http://www.spumco.com/magazine/eowbcc/) Holman claimed to have found
the word "foo" on the bottom of a Chinese figurine. This is plausible;
Chinese statuettes often have apotropaic inscriptions, and this may have
been the Chinese word `fu' (sometimes transliterated `foo'), which can
mean "happiness" or "prosperity" when spoken with the proper tone (the
lion-dog guardians flanking the steps of many Chinese restaurants are
properly called "fu dogs"). English speakers' reception of Holman's
`foo' nonsense word was undoubtedly influenced by Yiddish `feh' and
English `fooey' and `fool'.
Holman's strip featured a firetruck called the Foomobile that rode on
two wheels. The comic strip was tremendously popular in the late 1930s,
and legend has it that a manufacturer in Indiana even produced an
operable version of Holman's Foomobile. According to the Encyclopedia of
American Comics, `Foo' fever swept the U.S., finding its way into
popular songs and generating over 500 `Foo Clubs.' The fad left `foo'
references embedded in popular culture (including a couple of
appearances in Warner Brothers cartoons of 1938-39; notably in Robert
Clampett's "Daffy Doc" of 1938, in which a very early version of Daffy
Duck holds up a sign saying "SILENCE IS FOO!") When the fad faded, the
origin of "foo" was forgotten.
One place "foo" is known to have remained live is in the U.S. military
during the WWII years. In 1944-45, the term `foo fighters' was in use by
radar operators for the kind of mysterious or spurious trace that would
later be called a UFO (the older term resurfaced in popular American
usage in 1995 via the name of one of the better grunge-rock bands).
Because informants connected the term directly to the Smokey Stover
strip, the folk etymology that connects it to French "feu" (fire) can be
gently dismissed.
The U.S. and British militaries frequently swapped slang terms during
the war (see kluge and kludge for another important example) Period
sources reported that `FOO' became a semi-legendary subject of WWII
British-army graffiti more or less equivalent to the American Kilroy.
Where British troops went, the graffito "FOO was here" or something
similar showed up. Several slang dictionaries aver that FOO probably
came from Forward Observation Officer, but this (like the
contemporaneous "FUBAR") was probably a backronym . Forty years later,
Paul Dickson's excellent book "Words" (Dell, 1982, ISBN 0-440-52260-7)
traced "Foo" to an unspecified British naval magazine in 1946, quoting
as follows: "Mr. Foo is a mysterious Second World War product, gifted
with bitter omniscience and sarcasm."
Earlier versions of this entry suggested the possibility that hacker
usage actually sprang from "FOO, Lampoons and Parody", the title of a
comic book first issued in September 1958, a joint project of Charles
and Robert Crumb. Though Robert Crumb (then in his mid-teens) later
became one of the most important and influential artists in underground
comics, this venture was hardly a success; indeed, the brothers later
burned most of the existing copies in disgust. The title FOO was
featured in large letters on the front cover. However, very few copies
of this comic actually circulated, and students of Crumb's `oeuvre' have
established that this title was a reference to the earlier Smokey Stover
comics. The Crumbs may also have been influenced by a short-lived
Canadian parody magazine named `Foo' published in 1951-52.
An old-time member reports that in the 1959 "Dictionary of the TMRC
Language", compiled at TMRC, there was an entry that went something
like this:
FOO: The first syllable of the sacred chant phrase "FOO MANE PADME
HUM." Our first obligation is to keep the foo counters turning.
(For more about the legendary foo counters, see TMRC.) This
definition used Bill Holman's nonsense word, only then two decades old
and demonstrably still live in popular culture and slang, to a ha ha
only serious analogy with esoteric Tibetan Buddhism. Today's hackers
would find it difficult to resist elaborating a joke like that, and it
is not likely 1959's were any less susceptible. Almost the entire staff
of what later became the MIT AI Lab was involved with TMRC, and the word
spread from there.
> Sinon à propos de ma lecture de ton livre sur Relax NG, je me rend compte
> que ça ressemble beaucoup à mon schéma maison (cool!) et ça parait en effet
> beaucoup plus intuitif que les dtd ou schema w3c.
> par contre je n'ai pas très bien compris pourquoi la syntaxe n'utilise pas
> minOccurs et maxOccurs qui me parait tellement plus simple que onOrMore
> etc... mais bon faut que je lise jusqu'au bout !
Je ne suis pas certains d'avoir expliqué ce point.
L'utilisation de minOccurs et maxOccurs est beaucoup plus pénalisante
que celle de oneOrMore/zeroOrMore/... lorsque maxOccurs est grand. Le
validateur de schémas SQC génère d'ailleurs un warning lorsque l'on
utilise un maxOccurs supérieur à une certaine valeur.
La question a été posée sur les listes de discussions RELAX NG au moment
de l'écriture de la première version de la spec et il a été conclu que
cela n'en valait pas le coup...
> très fort l'utilisation des <ref name="element-title"/> et la récursivité !
> Ca complique un peu les choses au niveau de ma xsl qui génère la xsl de
> saisie mais après tout rien ne m'empêche de recréer l'arbre du schema sans
> ref (par "concaténation") ou bien en implémentant les ref directement ...
> est-ce (entre autre) ce que tu sous-entendais lorsque tu disais qu'il me
> fallait utiliser un schema très simplifié ?
Oui, tout à fait.
> Sinon qq autres coquilles décellées à la lecture :
> http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ch05s02.html : "It would mot make a
> difference if we had written"
>
> http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/RngBookNonXmlSyntax.html : "The compact
> syntax is extremely easy to use, especially (but not only if you've ever
> worked with DTDs."
>
> Je voulais mettre ceci en annotation du livre mais apparament il faut des
> droits ?
Non, le système d'annotation est simplement indisponible pour le moment!
> Je lis, je me documente et je réfléchis. en tout cas tu m'as ouvert des
> perspectives très interessantes !
> je reviens prochainement avec certainement un tas de questions ;)
OK, bonne lecture!
Eric
--
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com
(ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax
(W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Fri Apr 8 18:50:49 2005
